Elon Musk on Racism, Bailing Out Trump, Hate Speech, and More - The Don Lemon Show
Don Lemon (00:06):
Welcome to the Don Lemon Show, everyone. We’re still here. In a minute, I’m going to bring you my conversation with Elon Musk, the one that everyone is talking about. But first, let me tell you a bit about the show. Contrary to what you might’ve heard, we weren’t canceled by X. Yes, after months of begging me, wooing me to offer some exclusive content on his platform, Elon Musk decided to scrap the deal. But our plan is and always has been, to release this show everywhere, on YouTube, on Spotify, on iHeartRadio, just about any place you stream content.
(00:39)
Now for my conversation with Elon, as with all my interviews, no restrictions, no ground rules, nothing off limits or out of bounds. That is until the interview ended. So what went wrong? I don’t know. But my hope is that you learn something about both Elon and me, two people who come from completely different vantage points on almost every single issue. And I challenge you, Elon, to watch the whole interview and tell the world why this isn’t what you claim you want on X.
(01:11)
Thank you for inviting us here-
Elon Musk (01:12):You’re welcome.
Don Lemon (01:13):… to your Tesla headquarters. I’m surprised at how big it is. I’ve never seen it.
Elon Musk (01:17):Yeah, it’s about three times the size of the Pentagon. We built it in 16 months. It’s the fastest construction project in the United States since World War II.
Don Lemon (01:26):So I’m here, as you know, I’m on the platform because you say you’re a free speech absolutist, and there are no conditions?
Elon Musk (01:32):Yeah. Free speech, as much as possible within the bounds of the law.
Don Lemon (01:38):
Yeah. So the reason I’m saying that is because there are no conditions on this interview. You said that, “I’ll speak to you for an hour. I don’t like sound bites,” so I welcome that. So let’s get into it. So we are here in Austin, South by Southwest is going on. We’re at the Tesla headquarters. You are in the process of moving SpaceX here, I understand?
Elon Musk (01:56):No, so SpaceX has a massive facility in South Texas where we build and launch Starship, and then we have in Bastrop, near Austin, we are about to start production at a large Starlink factory for Starlink terminals, but we’re not shutting down any facilities in California.
Don Lemon (02:24):
Listen, we are here as part of a launch of a news interview show that is going to be on x.com. It’s coming as the media industry, as you know, is going through a whole lot of changes. X has also been affected by that. Where do you see X.com’s role in the future of news and journalism, Elon?
Elon Musk (02:40):
Well, I think I see X as, it’s really the number one source of news in the world. So it is the number one way that people actually are informed about any kind of news, meaning real time events is on the X platform, formally Twitter, there’s nothing even close for real time news. So we also want to expand upon that and we have done so with the long form content. So instead of just doing what you used to call tweets, you can do long form posts. You can post an entire essay. In fact, you can now put an entire book, post an entire book to the platform. You can do long form video content, so you can do up to four hour video segments. We really want news in whatever form it is, or information I should say, in whatever form it is to be available on our platform, whether it’s short, long, text, pictures, video, whatever the case may be.
Don Lemon (03:41):And some of the stuff that we do, long form video, interview shows, what have you.
Elon Musk (03:45):Yeah.
Don Lemon (03:46):You reached out over the summer and you said, “It would be great to have Maddow, Don Lemon, others on the Left put on this platform. You’ll receive full support. The digital town square is for all.” What do you mean by that?
Elon Musk (03:59):
I just mean that we want to make sure that there are a wide variety of viewpoints that… We obviously have, for example, Tucker Carlson, who most people will view as being on the Right, and that’s quite a prominent name on the Right. We want to have prominent names on the Left as well, to provide different views of points of view, as well as centrist. Just basically a wide range of viewpoints on the platform so users can hear different opinions. They can hear what’s your point of view, what’s Tucker’s point of view, and people can make their own decision about what they believe.
Don Lemon (04:39):You didn’t mean that I’m on the Left. Did you think that?
Elon Musk (04:41):
I thought you were on the Left, but I know, I’m used… Let’s just say, I don’t know what the Left is or the Right is, frankly these days because things can be quite polarized. But my impression was that you’re more likely to be described as on the Left than the Right. My sense is you’re sort of center Left. I don’t know, you tell me.
Don Lemon (05:02):Well, did you ever watch me on CNN? Did you watch…
Elon Musk (05:09):I saw segment. CNN is generally considered Left, yeah.
Don Lemon (05:14):Why do you say that?
Elon Musk (05:17):Why do I say CNN is generally considered Left? I think if you look at any sort of media survey of what is on the Left or Right, I think they would say, for example, Fox is on the Right and CNN is on the Left.
Don Lemon (05:32):Yeah. So that’s what-
Elon Musk (05:34):Am I missing something here?
Don Lemon (05:37):
Are you missing something? I don’t know. I think that when I read that, I said, like many of my critics or detractors, they never really watched me on CNN, they just saw the clips of me either on social media or maybe on Fox News or on conservative media where I’ve become a character or a caricature of what I actually am and is taken out of context.
Elon Musk (05:58):Sure. Well, how would you describe yourself?
Don Lemon (06:01):I would describe myself as someone who is… I am independent in my thinking and I vote for people based on the issues and how I feel about it, not necessarily because of political leaning of some sort.
Elon Musk (06:14):
Well, I agree with that approach. I think that’s generally how people should take things, which is, there are a whole set of issues which are somewhat arbitrarily bucketed into Right or Left, but I think most citizens would think that they would agree with some things on the Left, but not everything, or they would agree with some things on the Right, but not everything. So that’s what I think most people would feel, I guess.
Don Lemon (06:44):
How much longer, and maybe the answer is forever, how much longer are we going to have to call it the formerly known as Twitter? I mean even Prince went back to Prince instead of… Is it always going to be X?
Elon Musk (06:55):It’s definitely always going to be X.
Don Lemon (06:57):So X is going through some changes, as I said, a lot of media companies are going through some changes. You’re in charge of an incredible platform, Elon, how do you feel that’s going?
Elon Musk (07:08):
I think it’s going pretty well so far. We’re seeing record usage. We’ve added a tremendous amount of functionality. I mentioned that it used to be that you can only do a short text and maybe a picture or something like that, a short video, but now you can do long form text, long form video. We’ve added audio video calling, so you can not just do text, DMs, you can do [inaudible 00:07:31] video calling. We’ve improved the algorithm, I think significantly and made the system faster and better and that’s reflected in the increased usage.
Don Lemon (07:42):
Let’s talk about that because you said you wanted all points of view, it’s a digital town square for all. The platform has kind of picked up where conservative media, some conservative media is left off, moving to the Right, increasingly becoming part of a conservative dialogue and sometimes even conspiracy theories, right? There was an article recently written about you saying that you, Donald Trump and X were the most important people or places, or whatever, icons when it comes to the MAGA movement. Do you agree with that? How do you feel about that?
Elon Musk (08:14):
Well, I mean there are nonsense articles written all the time, and I certainly wouldn’t agree with that one. I’d put it in the nonsense category. So the objective fact of the matter, in my opinion, was that, old Twitter was fundamentally a tool of the far Left, and that was really, I think a lot of it was due to being located in San Francisco, Berkeley, and so it wanted to essentially project the SF, Berkeley political dogma worldwide.
Don Lemon (08:44):You think it was far Left?
Elon Musk (08:45):Yes, I do.
Don Lemon (08:48):I actually got off the platform because I would get so much hate tweets, what it was called then, so much hate tweets and just guff from Right wing conspiracy theorists being called everything from fag to [inaudible 00:09:03]-
Elon Musk (09:02):Sure. It’s the internet, people will do… I mean, I’ve been called every name times a thousand.
Don Lemon (09:08):Yeah. Do you agree that it’s Right now, and that even it’s moved into sort of MAGA-land conspiracy theory?
Elon Musk (09:14):
I certainly don’t think it’s Right. The old school Twitter suspended and suppressed accounts that you’d call on the Right, 10 times more than they did on accounts on the Left. And even when they did suspend an account on the Left, it was because of arguments between two people on the Left. The political donations of old Twitter were 99% Democrat. Does that sound Left wing or Right wing to you?
Don Lemon (09:38):The Twitter donations?
Elon Musk (09:40):Yes. You know when they look at donations from a company, if a company donates… Literally 99% of all donations are to Democrats, does that strike you as a Left-leaning or a Right-leaning company?
Don Lemon (09:51):Oh, you mean the company donated? I understand what you’re saying.
Elon Musk (09:52):What I’m trying to tell you is that Twitter employees, people at Twitter, their political donations were 99%, literally 99% to Democrats. That’s obviously an extremely Left-leaning group.
Don Lemon (10:07):My question leading into this was about MAGA, and speaking of MAGA, you recently met with Donald Trump in Florida. What did you guys talk about?
Elon Musk (10:16):I was at a dinner, it was not dinner, I was at a breakfast at a friend’s place and Donald Trump came by. That’s it.
Don Lemon (10:24):So you didn’t go there to meet him?
Elon Musk (10:26):No, I went to a friend of mine’s house and he said, “Donald Trump’s coming by for breakfast, is that… Just so you know.” “Okay, fine.”
Don Lemon (10:35):What’d you discuss?
Elon Musk (10:41):Let’s just say, he did most of the talking.
Don Lemon (10:44):What did he say?
Elon Musk (10:47):The normal things he says, there was nothing particularly groundbreaking or new, but President Trump likes to talk and so he talked. I don’t recall him saying anything that he hasn’t said publicly, and that was it. It was just a breakfast.
Don Lemon (11:08):Did he ask you for money?
Elon Musk (11:09):He didn’t.
Don Lemon (11:10):Did he ask you for a donation?
Elon Musk (11:11):No.
Don Lemon (11:12):He didn’t?
Elon Musk (11:12):No.
Don Lemon (11:13):You said you’re not going to donate to any candidate.
Elon Musk (11:14):That’s correct.
Don Lemon (11:15):Why not?
Elon Musk (11:18):I think… Well, I’ll voice my opinion, I think, I don’t want to put a thumb on the scale monetarily that is significant.
Don Lemon (11:37):Are you going to loan him money to help pay his bills?
Elon Musk (11:40):No.
Don Lemon (11:41):Not at all, to his legal bills?
Elon Musk (11:43):I’m not paying his legal bills in any way, shape or form.
Don Lemon (11:46):And he did not ask you for money?
Elon Musk (11:47):Money and he did not ask me for money.
Don Lemon (11:49):So you’re not going to endorse a candidate?
Elon Musk (11:52):I may in the final stretch endorse a candidate, but I don’t know yet. I want to make a considered decision before the election. And if I do decide to endorse a candidate, then I will explain exactly why.
Don Lemon (12:07):Are you leaning towards anyone?
Elon Musk (12:08):No.
Don Lemon (12:09):You’re not leaning towards anyone, because you’ve been-
Elon Musk (12:11):[inaudible 00:12:11] I’m leaning away from Biden.
Don Lemon (12:14):You’re leaning-
Elon Musk (12:15):I’ve made no secret of that.
Don Lemon (12:18):Are you concerned about losing your security clearance if Biden is reelected? Does that have anything to do with it?
Elon Musk (12:24):No.
Don Lemon (12:26):You are leaning away from Biden, but you’re not going to endorse anyone. It seems like an endorsement of President Trump because there are only two people who are running now. Nikki Haley is out, [inaudible 00:12:36]-
Elon Musk (12:36):
I mean, a lot could happen between now and the election, so we’ll see who in the final analysis are the choices for president, and at that point I may or may not endorse one of the candidates. If I do, I will provide a very detailed explanation of why I’m endorsing one or the other.
Don Lemon (12:57):At that point, might you contribute or donate?
Elon Musk (13:02):I think it’s unlikely.
Don Lemon (13:04):
So you have been posting up a storm, as you always do, in the past couple weeks about the redesign of the Tesla Roadster coming at the end of this year. Are there any updates that you can talk about to expect from flagship EV? I mean, Tesla stock is down in the last six months. What’s next for the company?
Elon Musk (13:24):
The stocks go up and down, but what really matters is, are we making and delivering great products? The Tesla products are outstanding. Last year the Tesla Model Y was the bestselling car of any kind in the world. So it was about 1.2 million units. It was the bestselling car despite being, I think around 50% more expensive than the next bestselling vehicle, of any kind, not just electric. So I think that’s a testament to the incredible work of the Tesla team. And we launched the Cybertruck. Obviously that’s being very well received. We have I think over a million orders for the Cybertruck. So it’s a really special product. I think the Cybertruck is one of those products that comes along really once in several years, maybe once a decade. The Cybertruck is a once a decade product. It is so special and I think it’s our best product.
Don Lemon (14:29):
But everyone improves over time. I mean Apple, I thought my phone was here, but Apple, the phone got better over time. I’m sure that your cars will get better over time. You have been tweeting about the updates in the Roadsters. Is there something that we should [inaudible 00:14:42]-
Elon Musk (14:42):Yeah, yeah. So you did mention the Roadsters, so I don’t want to give away much more than what I’ve said publicly, except that the Roadster will be a collaboration between SpaceX and Tesla, so you can expect some rockety stuff there.
Don Lemon (14:59):A flying car?
Elon Musk (15:02):Maybe. It’s not out of the question.
Don Lemon (15:10):Go on.
Elon Musk (15:11):
No, I got to reserve the cool stuff for when we actually unveil it, but it is going to be really cool. It’s going to have some rocket technology in it. I think the only way to do something that’s cooler than the Cybertruck is to combine SpaceX and Tesla technology to create something that’s not even really a car.
Don Lemon (15:36):Then what would it be?
Elon Musk (15:38):Something that’s never existed before.
Don Lemon (15:40):I’m getting Jetsons’ vibes.
Elon Musk (15:42):Totally Jetsons’ vibes. And [inaudible 00:15:46] may not be aware, some things that I have said publicly is that it’ll do zero to 60 in under one second. So best by far faster than any sports car that exists, and that’s not even the most exciting thing about it.
Don Lemon (16:02):Does it have wings?
Elon Musk (16:05):No, it does not have big wings because big wings would be unwieldy on the road.
Don Lemon (16:09):Does it have propellers?
Elon Musk (16:10):It does not have propellers.
Don Lemon (16:12):It has wheels?
Elon Musk (16:14):It does have wheels.
Don Lemon (16:14):[inaudible 00:16:17].
Elon Musk (16:17):This is Roadster 20 Questions.
Don Lemon (16:19):Does it have a steering wheel?
Elon Musk (16:22):Not exactly.
Don Lemon (16:23):What is it?
Elon Musk (16:25):It will have a drive by wire yolk, essentially kind of like the way aircraft or modern jets are controlled.
Don Lemon (16:36):And do you think it’s the way of the future, that everyone will follow your lead on this?
Elon Musk (16:41):I don’t think anyone will ever make anything like the Roadster that we’re going to make.
Don Lemon (16:46):Let’s talk now about SpaceX, Tesla. You’ve got a lot of lawsuits. You’ve got x.com, you’ve got a lot going on. How do you relax?
Elon Musk (16:54):Well, I relax… I spend time with my kids, my friends, and I am somewhat of a neurotechnologist, so I like to play video games. I’ll play video games with friends online.
Don Lemon (17:10):Which one?
Elon Musk (17:12):Lately I’ve been playing Diablo, but I’ve played almost all the games over the years. A long time ago I was semi-pro good at Quake. This is really dating me, because we’re talking about 25 years ago.
Don Lemon (17:33):I don’t know video games. I just know that my great nephew loves Fortnite and some other stuff. He’s always with the headphones in and doing the thing. That helps you relax, right?
Elon Musk (17:43):
Yeah. The nice thing is, if you’ve got friends in different cities and they’re playing the same game, you can both go online at the same time and play the game together even though you’re in different cities.
Don Lemon (17:54):Listen, I’m not asking you anything that anyone else hasn’t asked you about your controversial stuff that you tweet. You post a lot of controversial stuff. Is that considered blowing off steam?
Elon Musk (18:10):I guess I do enjoy using the platform. I do call the X platform the PVP or player-versus-player platform. In video games there’s a player versus environment, where you’re not playing against other people, and then there’s PVP, which is hardcore, you’re actually playing against other people.
Don Lemon (18:33):But that’s blowing off steam for you.
Elon Musk (18:38):Yeah.
Don Lemon (18:38):Yes.
Elon Musk (18:38):It is to some degree. Not always. Obviously, I use it to post jokes, to post sometimes trivia, sometimes things that are of great importance.
Don Lemon (18:53):You do a lot of it at night, late at night. When you’re doing this are you sober when you do it?
Elon Musk (19:00):
Almost always, yes.
Don Lemon (19:01):Are you under the influence of anything?
Elon Musk (19:03):No, I don’t drink. I don’t really… No.
Don Lemon (19:08):No drink, no smoke, no nothing? You smoked pot with Rogan.
Elon Musk (19:12):I had one puff.
Don Lemon (19:12):Yeah.
Elon Musk (19:13):I think anyone who smokes pot can tell I don’t know how to smoke pot.
Don Lemon (19:15):But you’ve admitted that you have a ketamine prescription.
Elon Musk (19:19):Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Don Lemon (19:20):What’s that for?
Elon Musk (19:21):
It’s pretty private to ask somebody about a medical prescription, but I think… Something I’d say, there are times when I have sort of a negative chemical state in my brain. Like depression, I guess. Or depression that’s not linked to any negative news and then ketamine is helpful for getting one out of a negative frame of mind.
Don Lemon (19:55):Listen-
Elon Musk (19:56):In fact, I generally… Obviously, I’m not a doctor, but I would say, if someone has depression issues, they should consider talking to their doctor about ketamine instead of SSRIs.
Don Lemon (20:05):Listen, I think that ketamine and drug therapy is increasingly becoming more in the mainstream.
Elon Musk (20:12):Yeah.
Don Lemon (20:13):You’re doing it under a doctor’s care, right?
Elon Musk (20:16):Yeah, yeah. Literally a prescription from a real doctor. Not like… You know?
Don Lemon (20:20):Yeah. But do you feel like you ever abuse it?
Elon Musk (20:23):
I don’t think so. If you use too much ketamine you can’t really get work done and I have a lot of work. I’m typically putting in 16 hour days. That’s normal for me and it’s rare for me to even take off a weekend day. I don’t really have a situation where I can be not mentally acute for an extended period of time. I can’t really get wasted because I can’t get my work done.
Don Lemon (20:49):How often do you take it?
Elon Musk (20:54):It’d be like a small amount once every other week or something like that.
Don Lemon (20:58):But it’s not on the bottle where it says take this dose this many times a week or whatever, if it’s not you’re doctor’s…
Elon Musk (21:05):There are several weeks will go by where I don’t use it.
Don Lemon (21:08):You don’t use it.
Elon Musk (21:09):
Yeah. Like I said, I think what I find ketamine… If you… Literally, a chemical state in your brain that you can’t just think yourself out of, then ketamine is helpful for getting you out of a depressive mind state.
Don Lemon (21:24):You suffer from depression or you have a depressive mind state? And I ask you as someone who has suffered from depression.
Elon Musk (21:31):I wouldn’t say that I have a case of extended depression. It’s just, once in a while, I get into a negative chemical mind state. Once in a while. It’s not a common thing, but once in a while, this happens.
Don Lemon (21:46):Where do you think that comes from?
Elon Musk (21:48):I think it’s just genetic, basically.
Don Lemon (21:51):You think it’s just genetic history?
Elon Musk (21:53):
I think so. Yeah. Some people are just wired to be happy all the time. Some are, unfortunately, wired to be sad all the time and, in my case, I’m generally pretty positive and optimistic, but once in a while, I don’t know what happens, just some… Like I said, I think it’s just a chemical tides in your brain once in a while. It’s like a brain storm.
Don Lemon (22:22):Yeah. Do you ever worry that this may get in the way of your government contracts and clearances and Wall Street as well?
Elon Musk (22:34):
From a standpoint of Wall Street, what matters is execution. Are you building value for investors? Tesla is worth about as much as the rest of the car industry combined. From nothing. That’s pretty good. As I mentioned, we had the bestselling car on earth last year. From an investor standpoint, if there is something I’m taking, I should keep taking it.
Don Lemon (23:02):You talk about your ketamine use and depression. You also have said, and correct me-
Elon Musk (23:07):I should say, the reason I mentioned the ketamine prescription on the X platform was because I thought maybe this is something that could help other people. That’s why I mentioned it.
Don Lemon (23:18):
Yeah. Can we talk about the great replacement theory now? It’s one of the things that you post, a great replacement theory. You claim that Democrats, President Biden’s immigration plan to open up the border, you said that the President is getting, and Democrats are doing it, to get more votes, but undocumented immigrants cannot vote in federal elections, so how is that possible?
Elon Musk (23:41):
Right. You’re conflating two things. One is great replacement theory. The other is, which I don’t subscribe to that, I’m simply saying that there is an incentive here, if legal immigrants wish, I think have a very strong bias to, at least everything I’ve read, very strong bias to vote Democrat. The more that come into the country, the more they’re likely to vote in that direction. It is, in my view, a simple incentive to increase voters to Democrat voters.
(24:14)
Yeah. Your question is how. There’s a few ways that this works. One is that, when the census is done, the census is based on all people in an area, whether they are citizens or not. If there are a concentration of people who came here legally, in a particular state, that state will actually then get an increased number of House seats. The House seat apportionment is proportionate to number of people, not the number of citizens. The illegals overwhelmingly go to places like California and New York, and if you just look at the math, if you look at the apportionment with and without illegals, I believe California would lose… I believe there will be a net loss of blue states of approximately 20 seats in the House.
This also applies to the electoral college. You say this also applies to electing the president because the electoral votes are also done by apportionment the same way that House seats are done.
Don Lemon (25:27):
But the reason, Elon, the electoral college is in place is to balance that, so that doesn’t happen. What you’re saying about it is the exact opposite of the reason why the electoral college is there. The electoral college, at this point in our history, gives people who are in smaller states and red states much more of an influence over our elections than people who are in blue states and the majority of the people in this country. That’s what the electoral college does. It actually does the exact opposite of what you’re saying. It protects people who are in smaller states and protects people who are in red states. Red states because they tend to be smaller and less populous.
Elon Musk (26:04):I think that statement is… What you said is true, but what I said is also true, which is that, as is the case, a disproportionate number of illegal immigrants go to blue states, they amplify the effect of a blue state vote. And the math, as I understand it, you can research this obviously very easily on there, it’s pretty straightforward to research this, but my understanding is that the Democrats would lose approximately 20 seats in the House if illegals were not counted in census and that’s also 20 less electoral votes for President. Illegals absolutely do affect who controls the House and who controls the presidency does not affect the Senate.
Don Lemon (26:54):In blue states, you’re talking about. I don’t believe that your information on that is right. Listen, let’s talk more about the great replacement because the first time that you posted on X about this Jewish conspiracy, you ended up apologizing.
Elon Musk (27:09):I didn’t call it a… I just said that there’s a simple matter of incentives. You don’t need a conspiracy when you have basic incentives. In my view, there’s a basic incentive. There’s fundamental… For the Democrat party to foster an usher in a large number of legals and you don’t need a conspiracy in that case because you have a very basic incentive. You could say I’m wrong about that incentive, but that’s my view. I’m not buying into some great replacement theory. I’m simply saying there appears to be a very clear incentive for Democrats to have to maximize the number of illegals because it helps them win elections.
Don Lemon (27:46):
I’m talking about the great replacement theory is also part of a Jewish conspiracy theory and when you did the tweet or you responded to the tweet about that, you ended up apologizing, which I think it is good that you ended up apologizing. You went to Auschwitz with Ben Shapiro.
Elon Musk (28:04):Yeah.
Don Lemon (28:06):You said you learned your lesson. What did you learn?
Elon Musk (28:10):I said I learned my lesson?
Don Lemon (28:11):You said you learned your lesson when you apologized and you said you went to Auschwitz. You saw what…
Elon Musk (28:18):
No, I was already aware of these things and the nature of my comment that really inflamed people, what I was trying to say, and I did very quickly clarify this, this is what I’m saying, is that a number of prominent Jewish philanthropists fund groups that they should really take a closer look at funding because some of the groups they fund, I think, are antisemitic.
Don Lemon (28:44):
Do you understand the connection between the two? One, there’s a connection between, you said, Democrats and great replacement theory, but when it comes to the actual great replacement theory, originally it was started about Jewish people, as you said, flooding in the country and now people are using it for Democrats, saying the same thing about Democrats. Flooding illegal-
Elon Musk (28:59):
My view is a simple matter of incentives. I actually don’t see an incentive for Jewish people to want to have… To get illegal immigration. I don’t think there is such an incentive.
Don Lemon (29:12):
The great replacement theory is a neo-Nazi trope. It’s in the neo-Nazi manifesto. It’s in the Turner Diaries. It’s referenced by the Buffalo mass shooter and his manifesto where 10 people, black people, were murdered in Buffalo. It’s the actual title of the Christchurch shooters manifesto. 51 people in the Muslim mosque were murdered. 23 people murdered in El Paso by a shooter who used the same language that you use in that manifesto, when you say Hispanic invasion. Is that not-
Elon Musk (29:41):I didn’t say an Hispanic invasion.
Don Lemon (29:43):You quoted a tweet that called it a Hispanic invasion.
Elon Musk (29:49):If I quote something, it doesn’t mean I agree with everything in it. It’s just something that I think this is something people should consider.
Don Lemon (29:56):Why would you quote something that you didn’t believe?
Elon Musk (29:59):Because anything I quote is going to have a whole range of statements. It doesn’t mean I agree with everything in it.
Don Lemon (30:04):Do you think if you moderated yourself more, if there was better content moderation on the platform, that you wouldn’t have to answer these questions from reporters about the great replacement theory as it relates to Democrats, the-
Elon Musk (30:20):I don’t have to answer these questions.
Don Lemon (30:21):…great replacement theory as it relates to Jewish people. Do you think that-
Elon Musk (30:24):I don’t have to answer questions from the reporters, Don, the only reason I’m doing this interview is because you’re on the X platform and you asked for it. Otherwise, I would not do this interview.
Don Lemon (30:35):Do you think that you wouldn’t get in trouble or you wouldn’t be criticized for these things, criticized-
Elon Musk (30:38):I get criticized constantly. I could care less.
Don Lemon (30:41):You don’t care?
Elon Musk (30:42):No, I don’t care.
Don Lemon (30:42):Why not?
Elon Musk (30:44):I don’t think people should care what the media thinks about them. They’re terrible judges of character.
Don Lemon (30:50):
Even someone who has one of the biggest social media and biggest information platforms in the world, you don’t care? You don’t think that you have any… X.com, or… You don’t have any responsibility to the truth or moderating the platform?
Elon Musk (31:05):You’re conflating the truth with the media and I think the media is not truthful.
Don Lemon (31:09):Not with just the media, just the truth in general.
Elon Musk (31:13):
I care about the truth very much. That’s why we have, for example, community notes on the X system, where, in order for a community note to surface and provide corrective information about what somebody posts… And my posts are equally subject to this, I’ve been community noted many times. In order for a community note to surface, people who have historically disagreed must agree in order for a community note to surface. And all of the code for community notes is open source, all of the data is open source, so you can completely recreate it from scratch. The way to build trust is transparency.
Don Lemon (31:49):
I have noticed community notes. I think that you are right about that and I do think community notes are helpful. I think any type of content moderation, I do think that’s helpful. You recently called content moderation, though, a digital chastity belt. Do you believe that X and you have some responsibility to moderate hate speech on the platform?
Elon Musk (32:08):
I think we have a responsibility to adhere to the law and we have a responsibility to be transparent about when things are shown, why they’re shown. That’s why we open source our algorithm. I think once you start going beyond the law, now you’re putting a thumb on the scale and we don’t want to put our thumb on the scale.
Don Lemon (32:29):It doesn’t concern you that hate speech has gone… Research shows that it’s gone up on the platform since you took over. That’s not concerning to you?
Elon Musk (32:34):I believe that is false. In fact, the research that I’ve seen, it says it went down.
Don Lemon (32:37):
The study from the Institute of Strategic Dialogue found that anti-Semitic tweets doubled from June ’22 to February 2023. One study reported that as many as 86% of the posts reported for hateful content remained up after being reported. Hate speech on the platform is up.
Elon Musk (32:57):
What they will typically do is they’ll count the number of posts but not count the number of views. What matters is, was that post given high visibility or did one person see it? And if you look at the number of views, how many times was hate content viewed on our platform, it is down substantially.
Don Lemon (33:16):Yeah. That’s not what the study shows. And you said you like transparency. I’m going to show you this and-
Elon Musk (33:21):Don, you can get a study that we will tell you whatever you want.
Don Lemon (33:25):
These are just a handful of extremely… You look at those antisemitic and racist tropes and tweets and, as of this morning, they’re still on X and, from your own content policy, these posts should have been deleted. Why haven’t they been deleted? Why are they still there?
Elon Musk (33:44):We delete things if they are illegal.
Don Lemon (33:47):But these have been up there for a while.
Elon Musk (33:48):Are they illegal?
Don Lemon (33:50):They’re not illegal, but they’re hateful and they can lead to violence, as I just read to you. The shooters in all of these mass shootings...things attributed social media to radicalizing.
Elon Musk (34:04):So Don, you love censorship is what you’re saying?
Don Lemon (34:07):No, I don’t love censorship.
Elon Musk (34:08):Then why are you asking censor-
Don Lemon (34:09):I believe in moderation, but I don’t believe in-
Elon Musk (34:12):Moderation is a propaganda word for censorship.
Don Lemon (34:15):But don’t you think free speech is one thing, right, or not-
Elon Musk (34:19):Look, if something’s illegal, we’re going to take it down. If it’s not illegal, then we’re putting our thumb on the scale and we’re bringing censors.
Don Lemon (34:28):You’re putting your thumb on the scale for moderating hate speech? I mean, you don’t put out child pornography. That’s not-
Elon Musk (34:36):It’s illegal.
Don Lemon (34:37):Some people would say that’s considered censorship. I’m just saying you-
Elon Musk (34:40):No, I literally said if something is legal, we will obviously remove it. But if it’s not legal, the laws in this country are put forward by the citizens where democracy, if those laws put in place by the people, we adhere to those laws.
Don Lemon (34:59):Okay. I agree.
Elon Musk (35:01):If you go beyond the law, you are actually going beyond the will of the people.
Don Lemon (35:05):Okay. Agreed, with the law. But if you are doing something that promotes hate and violence and ultimately leads to killing, you don’t feel you have any responsibility not to do that? When the people who are doing it admittedly are saying those-
Elon Musk (35:22):Articles all the time that lead to violence and killing, don’t they? Shouldn’t they? Like you’re applying a differential standard to-
Don Lemon (35:30):
But that would never be in mainstream media. These types of images, that type of language. Those things would never be… When I was in mainstream media, we’d never promote things that would be antisemitic. We would never promote things that-
Elon Musk (35:47):I wouldn’t either.
Don Lemon (35:50):Did you not see those?
Elon Musk (35:51):You said promote. If content is on the platform, that doesn’t mean we promote it.
Don Lemon (35:56):But that wouldn’t be on a platform for mainstream media at all.
Elon Musk (36:00):No, but you can think of that’s because the mainstream media has, whatever, 20 articles a day. We have 500 million posts today.
Don Lemon (36:09):Does it bother you? How do you feel about that when you see it?
Elon Musk (36:13):I obviously disagree with that and I think it’s not good at all. It’s terrible.
Don Lemon (36:18):But you don’t want to get rid of it on the platform or at least moderate it.
Elon Musk (36:23):What you’re suggesting is censorship that goes beyond the law and what I’m saying is that we… I guess have a disagreement because I do not believe in censorship that goes beyond law. And you do. We have a difference of opinion in that regard.
Don Lemon (36:38):
I understand that, but these are your own rules on your own platform. These go against the rules on your platform. That’s why I’m asking you. If you said, listen, we allow everything, but that’s not what your content rules say and that’s why I’m asking you why are they still there? Your own content policy. That’s why I’m asking you that. Not because-
Elon Musk (36:55):Which part of our content policy says that we should delete these things?
Don Lemon (36:59):Your content policy talks about hate speech.
Elon Musk (37:02):Yes. We don’t promote hate speech.
Don Lemon (37:05):And so you don’t consider that hate speech?
Elon Musk (37:07):I guess you’re not understanding what I’m saying. You can sign up right now and do a hundred things that are hateful, but if nobody reads it, it doesn’t matter. So you can think of X as being… It’s much like the internet. It’s not some tiny publication with 20 articles a day. It’s 500 million.
Don Lemon (37:34):But everyone has the opportunity to read it, Elon.
Elon Musk (37:39):The opportunity to read the internet. Are you suggesting we should shut down the internet?
Don Lemon (37:42):No. But you don’t own the internet. I’m asking you about you and your responsibility and your platform and so I see how you feel now. You don’t agree, we don’t agree on this.
Elon Musk (37:52):Yes. You want censorship and I don’t.
Don Lemon (37:53):No, I don’t want censorship at all.
Elon Musk (37:55):Yes, you do.
Don Lemon (37:55):No, I want responsibility. I think there-
Elon Musk (37:58):You desperately want censorship.
Don Lemon (38:00):No. If I want a censorship-
Elon Musk (38:01):You want censorship so bad you can taste it.
Don Lemon (38:02):No, that’s not true. It’s not true. I think that there’s right and wrong.
Elon Musk (38:07):And want censorship.
Don Lemon (38:08):
And I think that when you have a platform that’s as big as yours and as powerful as yours and as influential as yours, and you are a person of consequence to the world with what you do, that there is a certain responsibility that goes along with what you have on your platform and what you put out to the world. And I think that’s important. You don’t see that responsibility?
Elon Musk (38:28):
I think we have a responsibility to adhere to the law and if people want the law changed, they should talk to their elected representative and get the law changed and then we’ll adhere to the law. But if you want us to go beyond the law, that is us deciding to be censors and I’m against censorship. I’m in favor of freedom of speech and freedom of speech only is relevant when people you don’t like say things you don’t like. Otherwise it has no meaning.
Don Lemon (38:57):But I do think that there should be guardrails and I believe in free speech as much as you. I don’t disagree. I don’t agree with a lot of what you put out on social media, but I will fight for your right to be able to say it.
Elon Musk (39:13):Great.
Don Lemon (39:14):
Yeah. Okay, so listen, let’s talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion. All right? That’s been a target of yours lately on… There was a repost of Ben Shapiro that you claim that DEI is killing people. Specifically, you point to medicine, you claim that DEI programs are putting people at risk. Do you really believe this to be true and what evidence do you have to support it?
Elon Musk (39:35):What I was referring to there was that if we lower the standards for doctors so that… If the test for a doctor is lowered, then the probability of them making a mistake and killing someone is obviously going to be higher.
Don Lemon (39:52):Wait, say that again? I’m not sure I understand what you said. I want to make sure I understand what you’re saying, I should say.
Elon Musk (39:56):
Yes. If the standards for passing medical exams and becoming a doctor or especially something like a surgeon, if the standards are lowered, then probability that the surgeon will make mistake is higher. They’re making mistakes in their exam. They may make mistakes with people and that may result in people dying.
Don Lemon (40:16):What evidence do you have though that they’re lowering the standards? There’s no evidence of that.
Elon Musk (40:21):I believe there is.
Don Lemon (40:23):There’s no evidence of that. Elon, what is the evidence?
Elon Musk (40:27):I believe they have literally lowered the standards at Duke University and that is what the article was referring
Don Lemon (40:32):There’s no evidence of-
Elon Musk (40:33):You say they have not lowered the standards?
Don Lemon (40:34):There’s no evidence about lowering standards and I think that there is-
Elon Musk (40:39):I believe that is a false statement you’re making.
Don Lemon (40:40):Okay. Well, we’ll figure it out.