Elon Musk (40:42):
I think the interesting thing is when this is posted on the X platform, there’ll be a whole bunch of things that rebut what you said and what I said. So people can then make their own decision based on the replies and the rebuttals and the community notes.
Don Lemon (40:54):
I think that’s fair. But I do think that on this particular topic, I do think that you and Ben Shapiro are reaching about this because there was… What Ben posted said that people were… He gave instances of people who were deliberately harming people. Nowhere in the thread does Ben suggest at all I should say that anyone is being killed as a result of DEI. That’s purely speculative. There’s research on DEI and medicine and there’s no evidence that standards of being lowered, that DEI is affecting medicine. Actually only 5% of doctors are black and a small percent.
Elon Musk (41:40):Yeah. Well, I think you’ll find that when this is posted to the X platform that people will reply to it with evidence. Maybe I’m wrong. Let’s see.
Don Lemon (41:48):
Okay, but that’s my whole thing about moderation. Maybe you’re wrong, but you’ll put it out there. You don’t know if it’s right. Do you think that your responsibility to make sure something is right before you, the person who owns it, Elon Musk is a huge figure in the world, that you should know that it’s true. There are people at X who can get research for you before you put something out there like that. That’s not necessarily true. Even in other examples.
Elon Musk (42:14):
If I say something that is inaccurate, I’m immediately corrected on the platform. That’s the advantage of a real time system like X. So there will be immediately in the replies, people correcting me, there’ll be community note that will correct me, which is attached to the actual post itself.
Don Lemon (42:28):Do you think as many people read the-
Elon Musk (42:29):Yes.
Don Lemon (42:30):Do you think as many people read that as it reads your tweet?
Elon Musk (42:32):Yes, in fact, and if there’s a community note that happens later that where somebody didn’t see but they’re replied to that or interacted with that post, we will notify them that there is now a community note correcting that post.
Whereas if you consider the conventional media, that doesn’t happen. Conventional media makes false statements all the time and nobody ever hears the correction.
Don Lemon (42:52):When I was in conventional media, I can only speak for myself. If I got something wrong, if someone got something wrong on the platform that I was on, it was corrected and we made sure that it was corrected. Now I can’t speak for anyone else.
Elon Musk (43:07):I don’t think that’s a universal situation.
Don Lemon (43:08):Okay. So just the research. So when you talk, do you believe that people are dying because medical standards, DEI, is causing medical standards to be lowered. Do you actually believe people are dying because of that?
Elon Musk (43:19):
I believe that if we lower the standards for what it takes to become a doctor.
Don Lemon (43:24):You’re saying if we lower the standards, but do you believe people are dying because the standards are being lowered?
Elon Musk (43:30):I don’t think that is yet an issue, but it could become an issue.
Don Lemon (43:35):
Okay. But the actual evidence and history shows the exact opposite. If you look at how minorities were treated by the medical system, most doctors now are white and there are lots of mistakes in medicine. So you’re saying that my doctors have bad medical care. I’m trying to understand your logic here when it comes to DEI because there’s no actual evidence of what you’re saying.
Elon Musk (44:04):
No, I said… So if the standards, like let’s say, I think that particular thing was referring to surgeons. Let’s say a surgeon in training is asked to do a series of operations out of the supervision of a senior surgeon and they get a bunch of those operations wrong. If that happens, and yet they are still approved to be a surgeon, the probability that someone will die I think at some point is high.
Don Lemon (44:32):Okay, I understand that, but that’s a hypothetical. That doesn’t mean it’s happening.
Elon Musk (44:36):I didn’t say it’s happening.
Don Lemon (44:39):You didn’t say it was happening.
Elon Musk (44:40):I said it will. I said if we lower standards, people will die.
Don Lemon (44:48):But why respond to something or put something out there that has not happened? Because I could say-
Elon Musk (44:55):I don’t want it to happen. I think we don’t want to lower standards.
Don Lemon (44:58):
If you look at the history of the medical industry, especially when it comes to Black Americans, it shows the exact opposite. If you look at the Tuskegee experiment and on and on, only 5% of doctors in America are black, all of them are white. So are you saying that if the majority of doctors are white, are you saying that… And there are still these inequities, right? And there’s still mistakes. Are you blaming DEI for that?
Elon Musk (45:24):
No, I’m very basically saying that if we lower standards for what it takes to become a board certified surgeon or an oncologist or something where the kind of disease we’re talking about, if you make a mistake causes someone to die, then more people will die than if we don’t lower the standards. Therefore, we should not lower the standards.
Don Lemon (45:48):But why do you think they’re lowering the standards for minority doctors or women doctors or…
Elon Musk (45:53):That’s what that article suggested? Yes, at Duke University.
Don Lemon (45:59):
Okay. The evidence that I have shows that that’s not true. Okay, so listen. After the door blew off this midflight and this Alaskan airline flight, do you remember that you responded a post claiming that the average HBCU grad was less intelligent than the average airline pilot and stated that it will take an airplane crashing and killing hundreds of people for them to change this crazy policy of DIE? I don’t know if you did… You misspelled it on purpose, which should be DEI. Do you believe that women and minority pilots are inherently less intelligent and less skilled than white male pilots?
Elon Musk (46:37):No. I’m just saying that we should not lower the standards for them.
Don Lemon (46:41):Okay. But there’s no evidence that standards are being lowered when it comes to the airline industry.
Elon Musk (46:48):You’ve repeatedly said that there’s no evidence that standards are being lowered and watch the replies showing all the evidence that it is.
Don Lemon (46:54):Replies though on social media or on Twitter are not necessarily fact and evidence. That’s people’s opinion.
Elon Musk (47:00):They will cite the replies. In the replies to this, you’ll see how often the information cited showing that indeed there are significant cases where standards are lowered.
Don Lemon (47:13):
And I do hope that happens. I do hope that happens and I look forward to it. And as you said, if you’re wrong, then you’re wrong. And if I’m wrong, then I’m wrong. Okay. And I am glad we’re having this conversation debating this, this is what we should be doing debating the issue. So if I’m wrong, then I’m wrong, and then there’ll be proven in the thing in you as well. But I just want to tell you that that pilot that you talked about, in fact was a woman pilot landed the plane safely despite the major found malfunction with the equipment, Boeing has taken responsibility for that incident saying that it was caused by faulty door panel. So I’m not sure what that had to do with lowering the standards for pilots when it was a faulty-
Elon Musk (47:47):No, it’s not lowering standards for pilots. The incentive structure I believe at Boeing changed to include DEI as a fundamental executive incentive, but in my view, it should be purely about passenger safety.
Don Lemon (48:06):Okay, but do you understand how by saying just that standards are being lowered, that you’re implying that they’re being lowered because people are less skilled and less intelligent and you’re talking about people of color and or women?
Elon Musk (48:24):Look, I’m saying we should not lower standards, that’s it.
Don Lemon (48:29):I think everyone can agree that you shouldn’t lower standards.
Elon Musk (48:33):Right.
Don Lemon (48:33):But you’re implying that they’re lowering standards because of people of color or women because someone is not a white male. You’re saying that they’re less skilled and less intelligent, that’s what you’re saying?
Elon Musk (48:42):No, I’m not saying that. I’m simply saying that they are-
Don Lemon (48:43):Then why would they be lowering the standards?
Elon Musk (48:45):I don’t know. Why are they lowering the standards?
Don Lemon (48:47):Just so you know, 5% of pilots are female, 4% are black. So you’re talking about this widespread takeover of minorities and women when that’s not actually true.
Elon Musk (48:59):I’m not saying there’s a widespread takeover.
Don Lemon (49:01):Well, you’re saying that the standards are being lowered because of certain people. You don’t believe in DEI, right? Do you not believe in diversity, equity and inclusion?
Elon Musk (49:10):I think we should treat people according to their skills and their integrity and that’s it.
Don Lemon (49:21):Do you know that studies show-
Elon Musk (49:24):Studies show?
Don Lemon (49:25):
Yeah. Well, we can look them up. So your reaction to studies show, and I understand, right? Because I always like to say, I always like to point to an exact study, something that is factual. It’s the same thing when you talk about, well, let’s see what the replies are on Twitter or on X. So I feel the same. I feel way about that, but this is what studies have shown and people will reply and they’ll say that companies with more diversity and their leadership teams have reported higher innovation rates than those with lower diversity or low diversity, and they’re better companies and they make more money. This whole idea about DEI, if you go woke or whatever, you go broke, that’s not necessarily true. People with diverse leadership teams and diverse workers make more money and more innovative.
Elon Musk (50:17):Like I said, my view is that the only basis for promoting somebody should be there are skills, talents, and their integrity. And that’s it.
Don Lemon (50:27):
I want to ask you about, there’s a federal government, EOC, they’re also currently involved in a lawsuit against Tesla that alleges that there is a history of widespread racial harassment against black Tesla employees as well as a pattern of retaliation for speaking out. What do you say to that?
Elon Musk (50:44):
Well, I don’t believe that is true. I think we’ve got a very good… If you walk around the Tesla Fremont plant, I think it’s a very good atmosphere. In fact, I practically lived there for three years trying to make the production work.
Don Lemon (51:02):Were you aware of such behavior?
Elon Musk (51:05):I never saw it.
Don Lemon (51:09):So you’re saying that this is not true, it’s not happening?
Elon Musk (51:12):Well, I mean, there’s over 20,000 people, so you see, if there’s over 20,000 people in one building, is everyone going to behave perfectly? No. Did I see any situations that I thought were improper? I did not.
Don Lemon (51:26):
Let’s talk about trans rights and the woke mind virus, because you talk about that a lot, you write about that a lot on the thing. You have been deeply outspoken about the issue of trans rights. You posted that pronouns and bio mean the woke mind virus ate your brain. Do you know what the term woke actually means?
Elon Musk (51:48):It’s come to mean a lot of things.
Don Lemon (51:50):But what it actually, originally it was meant to mean. It’s just being aware of inequities in society, and being aware of facts and history.
Elon Musk (52:01):Yeah, I think it’s come to be… I think being aware of inequities in society is fine, of course, but trying to make everything a race issue is, I think, divisive and corrosive to society.
Don Lemon (52:19):Even as it relates to trans issues, which is what I’m…
Elon Musk (52:22):Yeah. Race or gender or whatever.
Don Lemon (52:25):You think that society blames everything on racism now?
Elon Musk (52:30):It blames a lot of things on it and… Yeah.
Don Lemon (52:34):Do you think that’s unfair?
Elon Musk (52:36):Yeah.
Don Lemon (52:37):Why?
Elon Musk (52:38):I think we should not make this a constant subject. I think we need to move on. I think we just treat people like people.
Don Lemon (52:50):You don’t agree that this country was founded on racism, and founded on slavery, and in many ways inequities that still continue on to this day?
Elon Musk (53:05):
I think every country at that time, and I think even today, was extremely racist, every country. And obviously slavery was present in about half this country, but was not present in the North. There was racism for sure, but I think we want to look to the future rather than the past. And instead of engaging in constant rehashing of the past… Because, in fact, if you look at history, if you study history broadly, everyone was a slave. Everyone.
Don Lemon (53:53):Yes. Well, not everyone was a slave.
Elon Musk (53:55):Everyone was a slave.
Don Lemon (53:56):Okay. Good.
Elon Musk (53:58):We are all descended from slaves. All of us. But just a question of when? Was it more recent or less recent? That’s it.
Don Lemon (54:06):Right.
Elon Musk (54:09):But what future do we want? Is this something we want to make part of our constant dialogue forever, or do we want to say, “Let’s just move on and treat everyone according to just who they are as an individual”?
Don Lemon (54:24):I agree with you with that. That’s the ideal. But what the evidence shows is that that’s not what’s actually in practice.
Elon Musk (54:33):I think we’re doing it better than anywhere else.
Don Lemon (54:34):Yeah. That’s true. I agree with that, but that doesn’t mean a lot to a whole lot of people who aren’t able to take advantage of the opportunities that you are able to take advantage of, simply because of the color of your skin.
Elon Musk (54:49):What advantages does it do, the color of my skin give me?
Don Lemon (54:52):
Well, there’s an ease that you have in society that many people of color don’t. You are able to come to this country voluntarily. There are many people who are not able to come to the country voluntarily. There are people who came here as slaves.
Elon Musk (55:06):Actually, it was very difficult for me to come here.
Don Lemon (55:07):And there is a legacy of slavery that still continues on. There’s a legacy of racism that still continues on in this country, and that’s undeniable.
Elon Musk (55:15):Well, if we keep talking about it nonstop, it will never go away. If we keep making it the central thing, it will never go away.
Don Lemon (55:25):Why do you believe that?
Elon Musk (55:28):I think I’m just making a simple statement of fact. I think we want to get away from making everything a race or a gender or whatever issue and just treat people like individuals.
Don Lemon (55:43):
Do you have any desire to understand what many people of color and even trans people, how they feel about this country and how they’re treated in this country? If they say and they believe that they are treated a certain way in this country, why don’t you believe them?
Elon Musk (56:02):You cannot have a situation where someone is a self-described victim and they just get to be that because that’s how they feel.
Don Lemon (56:11):I think that that does happen in some cases, but not all cases. And I think that not understanding the history of the country, I think is a real shame. Look, I’ve had-
Elon Musk (56:22):We should understand the history of the country and other countries.
Don Lemon (56:25):I’ve had incredible opportunities as a person of color.
Elon Musk (56:27):Right. You did very well.
Don Lemon (56:28):But I’ve also been discriminated against and I know that I have, and I know that that’s real. And for someone to say that that isn’t happening and I should just move forward and not think about that and ignore the past is insulting.
Elon Musk (56:42):
I’m not saying it. Don, you keep putting words in my mouth. I’m not saying it’s not happening.
Don Lemon (56:45):I didn’t say that you said it.
Elon Musk (56:46):I’m saying that we as a country should move beyond questions of race and gender and we should treat people like individuals and base our opinions on their character and their skills.
Don Lemon (57:02):I don’t think that anyone will disagree with that.
Elon Musk (57:05):Exactly.
Don Lemon (57:05):All I’m saying is that that’s not happening and is not equal for everyone, that those opportunities don’t happen for everyone. And I am a living example that they don’t. I know that they don’t because I live it.
Elon Musk (57:17):You’ve been incredibly successful.
Don Lemon (57:18):
I have been, in spite of it all, but I know what I know. I’ve experienced what I’ve experienced. You haven’t done that and I cannot… I don’t know what it’s like to be from South Africa. I don’t know what it’s like to be a white man. I don’t know what it’s like to be a woman. I don’t know what it’s like to be a Latino person. I don’t know that. So I wouldn’t speak for them and just say, “You need to move on.” That’s not for me to say. Maybe I believe that it would be great if the country could live up to that ideal. You think that everyone has the same opportunities in America regardless of their background and ethnicity? Do you agree with that?
Elon Musk (57:59):No, I don’t think everyone has the same opportunities.
Don Lemon (58:01):Okay. So let’s talk about trans rights. When you decided to talk about the trans rights movement, you said that it was a woke mind virus. Why do you believe the trans rights movement is a woke mind virus? What do you mean by woke mind virus?
Elon Musk (58:22):
Woke mind virus is when you stop caring about people’s skills and their integrity and you start focusing instead on gender and race and other things that differ from that. I think the woke mind virus is fundamentally racist, fundamentally sexist and fundamentally evil. And we’ve got a little bit more time, so you choose your questions carefully.
Don Lemon (58:51):
Okay. Okay. Thank you for that. But I would appreciate you answering these. I think it’s important that we’re doing this. I think it’s important to the world to hear this, especially what’s going on in our country. The reason I ask you, look, and there are a whole lot of things that people maybe have questions about when it comes to transgender people, even people who are part of the LGBTQ+ community have questions about that. But if you are a free speech absolutist, and that is part of the First Amendment, also the freedom of expression falls under that First Amendment as well, so why can’t people choose to identify with the gender that they feel comfortable with or use a pronoun? Isn’t that part of freedom of expression?
Elon Musk (59:33):I guess they can ask others to do whatever they feel… They can ask others to do anything. It’s a different question whether they mandate that others do that thing.
Don Lemon (59:44):
Okay. Let’s talk more about free speech and for advertisers, right? Because all this controversy, I believe, as you know, has made X less appealing to advertisers. About half of them have left the platform. You call advertisers that left X.com, you said they were oppressors. You’ve even gone as far as saying it publicly that they can go F themselves or go fuck themselves.
Elon Musk (01:00:06):If they’re going to force censorship on a company before advertising, then obviously I find that unacceptable.
Don Lemon (01:00:12):You find it unacceptable. Why is that not a form of free speech? They are free to advertise where they want. They’re not beholden to… They’re not obligated to advertise on X.com.
Elon Musk (01:00:24):Right.
Don Lemon (01:00:25):So how is that not free speech?
Elon Musk (01:00:32):Whereas the other platforms will censor on behalf of advertisers, the X platform will not.
Don Lemon (01:00:38):Okay, but you don’t think it’s okay for them not to advertise with or pad their content or their advertisement next to something that is anti-Semitic or-
Elon Musk (01:00:54):That is a different question. You can absolutely choose next to which content do you want your advertising to appear. Absolutely, of course. And we have, I think, very good ad placement controls in this regard.
Don Lemon (01:01:09):Yeah. So you said if they kill the company, it’s them, but doesn’t the buck stop with you? I mean, you-
Elon Musk (01:01:18):I have to say, choose your question carefully. There’s five minutes left.
Don Lemon (01:01:23):Okay. But-
Elon Musk (01:01:24):Is this the question you want to ask?
Don Lemon (01:01:25):Same question is, you said that they are killing the company, but you’re the head of the company. The buck doesn’t stop with you?
Elon Musk (01:01:36):I acquired X in order to preserve freedom of speech in America, the First Amendment, and I’m going to stick to that. And if that means making less money, so be it.
Don Lemon (01:01:49):
So, listen, I am just being honest, right? I’m not trying to get you or anything. I was just surprised that you would blame other people for killing the company. I mean, when you say the buck stops with the President of the United States, regardless of what happens, why would that question upset you? You seem upset by it. Are you?
Elon Musk (01:02:12):I think you-
Don Lemon (01:02:12):And I’m not trying to upset you.
Elon Musk (01:02:14):Well, you are upsetting me because the way you’re phrasing the questions I think is not cogent.
Don Lemon (01:02:19):It’s not what?
Elon Musk (01:02:20):Not cogent.
Don Lemon (01:02:21):Cogent.
Elon Musk (01:02:21):Yes.
Don Lemon (01:02:22):Go ahead.
Elon Musk (01:02:22):
So if given a choice where an advertiser is saying, “You have to censor all this content on the platform,” irrespective of where their advertising appears, then our answer will be like, “Look, you can choose what you want your advertising to appear next to. But you can’t insist on censorship of the entire platform. And if you insist on censorship of the entire platform, even where your advertising doesn’t appear,” then obviously we will not want them as an advertiser.
Don Lemon (01:02:56):So what would you say to advertisers who have left the platform or who are considering coming back or not coming back? What would you like to say to them?
Elon Musk (01:03:05):
Well, first of all, almost all of our advertisers are coming back to the platform. So it’s a very short list of advertisers who are not coming back to the platform. And our advertising revenue is rising rapidly and our subscription revenue is rising rapidly. And I feel very optimistic about the future of the X platform.
Don Lemon (01:03:25):Okay. Listen, honestly, I’m not meaning to offend you. You’re an intense person. Where does that intensity come from?
Elon Musk (01:03:33):I was born that way and I had a tough childhood.
Don Lemon (01:03:39):You did?
Elon Musk (01:03:39):Yeah.
Don Lemon (01:03:40):How so?
Elon Musk (01:03:42):
Walter Isaacson goes into it in the book, and we only have a couple minutes left, so-
Don Lemon (01:03:47):All right.
Elon Musk (01:03:47):Too long to describe. So the one or two questions I can do and then we’ll have to call it.
Don Lemon (01:03:54):Okay. Again, I don’t mean to upset you. Why are you… You just…
Elon Musk (01:03:59):No, I have a whole room full of people waiting to meet with me.
Don Lemon (01:04:02):Okay.
Elon Musk (01:04:02):So we’re just going over time.
Don Lemon (01:04:03):Okay. All right, I understand that. So you said you were born that way. Do you think that the way that you see the world has to do with your relationship with anyone, perhaps your father or someone in your family?
Elon Musk (01:04:22):
I think we’re all affected by the people we grew up with. My aspiration is to do whatever it takes to extend consciousness into the future. That’s my goal, to make life multi-planetary as part of extending consciousness into the future.
Don Lemon (01:04:42):Have the past few years and considering everything that’s gone on, has it been difficult for you and your family life?
Elon Musk (01:04:50):It’s been okay.
Don Lemon (01:04:51):So then how do you see your legacy, Elon? How will people see you in the-
Elon Musk (01:04:59):
First of all, I’d say if I died knowing that I did what was right or did my best to do what was right, and even if in the history books they say I did wrong, I would still feel okay about that. I care about the reality of goodness, not the perception of it. I think we should view civilization as tenuous, as fragile. If you do study history broadly, you’ll see that there’s a rise and fall of civilizations. They don’t always go up. So we should do everything we possibly can to preserve and extend civilization as we know it and improve it to become more enlightened over time.
(01:05:39)
And we therefore want to address civilizational risks. We want to make sure that we don’t have, for example, demographic collapse, which is the case in a lot of countries, just very low birthrate. We want to obviously avoid World War III, anything that is a civilizational risk. That’s what I care about, civilizational risks. How do we extend consciousness into the future such that we are able to better understand the nature of reality? That’s what I care about. That’s my motivation.
Don Lemon (01:06:12):I know you have to go, if you’ll just give me… I’ll do a rapid fire thing here. Is there anything that you would change about anything that you’ve done in your life in the past or recently?
Elon Musk (01:06:23):I’ve made many mistakes over the years. If I had a time machine, I’d go back and fix them, but I don’t have a time machine.
Don Lemon (01:06:28):Thank you, Elon.
Elon Musk (01:06:28):Thank you.
Don Lemon (01:06:29):I appreciate it. Thank you so much. So that’s it. And as Elon would say, “You be the judge.” Let me tell you something about this show. The conversation doesn’t end just because the camera stops. We’ll see you next time. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching The Don Lemon Show. Click on the image on the top right to subscribe to my channel and the thumbnail in the bottom right to watch more content from my show. I’ll see you next time.