The Wall Street Journal
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The Journal.
THURSDAY, AUGUST 14, 2025
8/14/2025 4:00:00 PMShare This Episode
Is an Algorithm Blocking Your Job Search? One Man Is Trying to Find Out.
アルゴリズムがあなたの就職活動を妨げている？ある男性がその真相を探る
Derek Mobley spent years applying for jobs online after he got laid off. After more than 100 rejections, he started to wonder whether Workday – the popular online recruiting platform – was to blame. Now, Mobley is suing Workday, alleging that the company’s hiring algorithm discriminated against him. Derek shares his experience, and WSJ’s Lauren Weber explains how his lawsuit got this far. Annie Minoff hosts.
- laid off /leɪd ɔːf/ 解雇される、レイオフされる
- to blame /tuː bleɪm/ ～のせいにする、～が原因である
- suing /ˈsuːɪŋ/ 訴訟を起こす、告訴する
- alleging /əˈlɛdʒɪŋ/ （法的に）～だと主張する、断言する
- hiring algorithm /ˈhaɪərɪŋ ˈælɡərɪðəm/ 採用アルゴリズム（AIや自動化システムによる採用判定）
- discriminated against /dɪˈskrɪmɪneɪtɪd əˈɡɛnst/ ～に対して差別する、～を不利に扱う
- got this far /ɡɑt ðɪs fɑr/ ここまで進む、現段階まで到達する
- hosts /hoʊsts/ （番組を）司会する、進行する
Annie Minoff: A few years ago, Derek Mobley was working in IT. He loved his job so much, he told me he happily commuted an hour and a half each way to his office in Atlanta. But about a year into the job, Derek got called into a meeting.
Derek Mobley: Next thing I know they say, "Hey, it's time to lay some people off and nothing personal, it's just your numbers come up. And it was just time for me to go." And that was probably the most difficult day that I can recall in my adult life because it was a job I really did love.
Annie Minoff: Derek was laid off in 2017. After that, he picked himself up and embarked on a common and frustrating experience, the modern job hunt. And how many applications would you say that you submitted?
- pick oneself up /pɪk wʌnˈsɛlf ʌp/ 気持ちを立て直す、立ち直る
- embark on /ɪmˈbɑːrk ɒn/ ～に着手する、～に取り組む
Derek Mobley: I know it was probably well over 158 opportunities that I've applied for.
Annie Minoff: How many callbacks did you get?
Derek Mobley: Of those, really, none.
Annie Minoff: Wow.
Derek Mobley: Yeah. Yeah.
Annie Minoff: How did that feel?
Derek Mobley: Terrible. I mean, financial stress. Emotional stress. I just kept getting a lot of no's. It was just rejection, after rejection, after rejection.
Annie Minoff: It was demoralizing, but Derek kept at it. Sending out application after application for nine months. At that point, he noticed something.
Derek Mobley: One day I was looking at my phone and I got an email and it was at a very odd time of the day. It was like 1:30 in the morning and it was on a weekend. And it was like, okay, Sunday went there, who's actually looking at my resume or my application at that time of day and that time of the weekend? That basically was the watershed moment, getting that email at a weird time in the morning and I started thinking, this is not a human.
- odd time /ɑd taɪm/ 奇妙な時間、変な時間
- watershed moment /ˈwɔːtərʃɛd ˈmoʊmənt/ （人生や出来事の）転換点、画期的な瞬間
- at that time of the day /æt ðət taɪm ʌv ðə deɪ/ その時間帯に
Annie Minoff: This is a bot.
Derek Mobley: Yeah, this is definitely a bot.
Annie Minoff: A bot. Derek realized that an algorithm could be playing a big role in all those rejections he was getting. And that realization raised a lot of questions for him. Just what were those algorithms doing exactly and why couldn't he seem to catch a break? Those questions would eventually take Derek all the way to court in a lawsuit that could potentially impact millions of job seekers.
Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Annie Minoff. It's Thursday, August 14th.
Coming up on the show, one man's journey to find out if algorithms got in the way of his job search.
- playing a big role /ˈpleɪɪŋ ə bɪɡ roʊl/ 大きな役割を果たしている
- realization /ˌriːəˌlaɪˈzeɪʃən/ 気づき、認識
- raise questions /reɪz ˈkwɛstʃənz/ 疑問を投げかける、問題を提起する
- catch a break /kætʃ ə breɪk/ 幸運に恵まれる、運良くうまくいく
- take someone all the way to court /teɪk ˈsʌmwʌn ɔːl ðə weɪ tuː kɔːrt/ ～を最終的に裁判にまで導く
Every year Americans looking for work fill out millions of job applications, and our colleague Lauren Weber says that nearly all of them get submitted online.
Lauren Weber: Even if you walk into a store these days looking for an hourly job, I recently went through this with my 17-year-old son, you can't fill out a paper application anymore. You get told to go to the website and fill out the application online.
Annie Minoff: These days, being online often means having to interact with artificial intelligence in one way or another. Lauren says the job hunt is no exception. Lauren, how common is it for employers to use some kind of AI in recruiting?
Lauren Weber: It is ubiquitous, and we use artificial intelligence now very broadly, but in this situation, we're not talking about generative AI like ChatGPT. We're talking about algorithms. The basic system is a simple keyword match.
Annie Minoff: Say you're applying to a job in digital marketing, the software will look for the words digital and marketing and for synonyms of those words.
Lauren Weber: And they're going to score and sort applications based on how well a person's application fits with the words that are in the job description.
Annie Minoff: One of the biggest platforms using this kind of technology is Workday. Workday offers tools for managing HR, payroll, and recruiting. Tens of thousands of employers around the world, including The Wall Street Journal, use Workday, which means that the platform is often the first point of contact for job seekers filling out an application. Derek Mobley was one of those people.
Derek Mobley: It was just kind of interesting. I was like, "Wow, this is a lot of companies that utilize this platform."
Annie Minoff: When Derek was on the job hunt after getting laid off in 2017, he kept finding himself on Workday.
Derek Mobley: Normally, what I see is some type of Workday moniker. Either it's in a URL, it might say Abccompany.workday.com, or it just might have the company name, but then it'll have a Workday branding on the actual landing page that I'm on to try to apply for the position.
- moniker /ˈmɒnɪkər/ 名称、呼び名、別名（口語的・非公式）
- URL /ˌjuː ɑːr ˈɛl/ ウェブサイトのアドレス
- landing page /ˈlændɪŋ peɪdʒ/ ランディングページ（ウェブサイトの入り口ページ）
- branding /ˈbrændɪŋ/ ブランド表示、企業や商品のロゴ・デザインの使用
- apply for the position /əˈplaɪ fɔːr ðə pəˈzɪʃən/ 職に応募する
Annie Minoff: And what kinds of things do you have to submit?
Derek Mobley: Yeah, usually resume and voluntary questions that they ask you. Demographic wise, race, ethnicity, disability.
Annie Minoff: Lauren says that companies ask for this demographic information for their own equal employment record keeping, which some employers have to report to the government. And sometimes Derek says, employers asked other questions.
Derek Mobley: They're asking you maybe your attitude about certain things dealing with customers or how you interact with people, how you respond to coworkers, just things of that nature. And I guess obviously it's tailored to the company that you're applying for.
Annie Minoff: Workday says that applications on its platform are unique to each employer and that it doesn't own or administer tests to evaluate a person's intellect, capabilities, or personality. Once a job seeker like Derek submits an application through Workday, the company says its algorithm slots them into one of four categories, a strong, good, fair, or low match for the position.
Lauren Weber: Workday says we put them into these categories of the buckets based on how they score, and then we give that information to the actual employer, Workday's customers. And from there, Workday would say, we believe in ethical technology, ethical artificial intelligence. We believe there should be a human in the loop is the phrase that's often used.
- categories /ˈkætəɡɔːriz/ カテゴリー、分類
- buckets /ˈbʌkɪts/ （比喩）グループ、分類の区分
- score /skɔːr/ 評価点、スコア
- actual employer /ˈæktʃuəl ɛmˈplɔɪər/ 実際の雇用主
- ethical technology /ˈɛθɪkəl tɛkˈnɑːlədʒi/ 倫理的な技術
- artificial intelligence /ˌɑːrtɪˈfɪʃəl ɪnˈtɛlɪdʒəns/ 人工知能（AI）
- human in the loop /ˈhjuːmən ɪn ðə luːp/ 人間が介在するプロセス（AI判断における人間の関与）
Annie Minoff: But for candidates like Derek, those hiring decisions can feel awfully automated and impersonal.
Derek Mobley: And these emails, they never come with any signatures. It's always the human resources department. It is never a specific person. Back when I was younger, there was usually a name associated with it, like Bob from Human Resources.
Annie Minoff: Bob didn't think you were a fit.
Derek Mobley: Right. And the most frustrating thing was there were never any initial callbacks. There was never pre-screening, and usually pre-screening is very cursory. It was you have these certain criteria that kind of met certain criteria for our position, "Hey, let's have a conversation." And that wasn't happening.
- initial callbacks /ɪˈnɪʃəl ˈkɔːlbæks/ 最初の面接の呼び出し（電話や連絡）
- pre-screening /ˌpriːˈskriːnɪŋ/ 事前審査、予備選考
- cursory /ˈkɜːrsəri/ 大まかな、ざっとした、簡易的な
- criteria /kraɪˈtɪriə/ 基準、条件（criterionの複数形）
- met certain criteria /mɛt ˈsɜːrtən kraɪˈtɪriə/ 特定の条件を満たす
- "Hey, let's have a conversation." /heɪ lɛts hæv ə ˌkɑːnvərˈseɪʃən/ 「じゃあ、一度話してみましょう」
cursory /ˈkɜːrsəri/（ざっとした、表面的な）
＜＞ coarse /kɔːrs/（粗い、荒い）
Annie Minoff: Over a two-year period of unemployment, Derek spent hours applying for more than 100 jobs through Workday. Jobs he felt qualified for, if not overqualified. Still the rejections kept coming and that made Derek wonder if there was something more going on, something to do with Workday's algorithms.
Derek Mobley: The more that I kept digging, the more emails I pulled up, just the frustration of that. I'm thinking there's something here. I'm smelling the smoke, not necessarily seeing the fire, but I'm definitely smelling the smoke.
- keep digging /kiːp ˈdɪɡɪŋ/ 調べ続ける、掘り下げる
- smelling the smoke /ˈsmɛlɪŋ ðə smoʊk/ （比喩）危険や問題の兆しを感じる
- not necessarily seeing the fire /nɑt ˌnɛsəˈsɛrəli ˈsiːɪŋ ðə ˈfaɪər/ 必ずしも直接的な証拠は見えていない
- definitely smelling the smoke /ˈdɛfənətli ˈsmɛlɪŋ ðə smoʊk/ 確実に兆しを感じている
Annie Minoff: What do you think these algorithms might be picking up on?
Derek Mobley: I mean, I think it's a combination of things. There are so many different things that people can glean from your resume and things that you put on the application, disability, age, race.
8：11
Annie Minoff: For example, Derek says he suffers from anxiety and depression, and he sometimes acknowledged that in his applications.
Derek Mobley: What did they ask you in those voluntary forms, if you have a disability or not? There were times that I did indicate I had a disability.
Annie Minoff: Again, employers often gathered this information for their own equal employment record keeping. Derek also wondered if Workday's algorithms were picking up on his race.
Derek Mobley: It could be a race thing. I'm not 100% sure. I went to a historically black university or college I should say.
Annie Minoff: And he also thought his age could be coming into play.
Derek Mobley: I noticed as I got older, the less opportunities I received for interviews, the less responses I received. Then it got to the point where I started to take the date of graduation off my resume. See maybe that might help.
Annie Minoff: You were trying to game the algorithm through what you submitted.
Derek Mobley: Yeah, I was trying to do the best I can to get a fair shake, not trying to beat a system, not trying to do anything improper, just to get a fair shake, to get somebody to get a chance to look at what I bring to the table.
- fair shake /fɛr ʃeɪk/ 公平な扱い、公正な機会
=>shake : 扱い、機会、チャンス - beat a system /biːt ə ˈsɪstəm/ システムを打ち破る、制度を欺く
- improper /ɪmˈprɑːpər/ 不正な、不適切な
- bring to the table /brɪŋ tuː ðə ˈteɪbəl/ 提供できる価値やスキル、貢献
Annie Minoff: Workday says that its recruiting tools aren't trained to use or even identify protected demographic information like race, age, or disability. The company also noted that its customers configure its systems to fit their own needs and that Workday doesn't control how or when employers might update job candidates about their applications. Still, Derek had become convinced he might have a legal case.
Derek Mobley: What I'm saying there is some kind of inherent bias. I find it mighty strange that no matter what job it was, no matter what company it was, no matter what the position was, it was always a automatic decline when I went through the Workday platform.
- inherent bias /ɪnˈhɪrənt ˈbaɪəs/ 内在的な偏見、根本的に存在する偏り
Annie Minoff: And so Derek sued Workday.
Lauren Weber: So the case was filed in 2023.
Annie Minoff: That's Lauren again.
Lauren Weber: And I noticed it probably right around the time when it was filed, was kind of interested. I like many people that I've since spoken to about it, sort of assumed it wouldn't get very far.
- wouldn't get very far /ˈwʊdnt ɡɛt ˈvɛri fɑːr/ あまり進展しないだろう
Annie Minoff: But it did. Where Derek's case stands now is after the break.
Derek Mobley sued Workday in 2023. His lawsuit claims that the company's hiring algorithm discriminated against him based on age, race, and disability.
Derek Mobley: It is somewhat a novel type of case because usually people sue the employer that they didn't get the opportunity from. They usually don't sue Workday. And my contention is that it's the platform that's part of the problem. It is not necessarily seeing that Workday in and of itself a discriminatory. They're providing the tool for discrimination. It's kind of like people providing the weapons that cause the destruction
Annie Minoff: In a statement, Workday said that Derek's lawsuit is "without merit." Adding, that it's recruiting tools don't make hiring decisions, which are always made by its customers. Workday also disputed that it provides tools for discrimination.
Lauren Weber: So they are trying to say, if Derek Mobley is not getting jobs, it's not because of our software.
Annie Minoff: Workday has tried to get Derek's case thrown out and in an early ruling, the judge in the case agreed that Workday's algorithms were not intentionally discriminatory, but she also left a door open for Derek and his legal team.
Lauren Weber: Now, even if Workday didn't intend to discriminate, he can still try to show that Workday discriminated in the impact, in the effects of its algorithms.
Annie Minoff: Interesting.
Lauren Weber: That's called disparate impact.
- disparate impact
/ˈdɪspərət ˈɪmpækt/
不均衡な影響、結果として生じる差別（法律用語）
Annie Minoff: So he doesn't have to prove, "Hey, your algorithm is discriminating against me." He just has to prove it has had the effect of discriminating.
Lauren Weber: Yes.
Annie Minoff: It's the outcome that matters.
Lauren Weber: It's the outcome that matters.
Annie Minoff: In May, without addressing Derek's race and disability claims, the judge said that Derek's case could proceed on the basis of age discrimination. Experts Lauren talked to told her that proving Workday's algorithms had the effect of discriminating would most likely involve looking at the platform's internal data. For example-
Lauren Weber: When companies have any kind of product or a test, certainly a hiring test or software, they should be doing some analysis to make sure that it is not having this disparate impact, that it's not affecting people of certain groups in a negative way. They may have already done that, and so this may just be a question of them producing the tests that they've already done. There's a lot of discovery issues that they're going to be wrangling over, meaning how much information does Workday have to show Derek and his lawyers? Any software company will argue that its algorithms are proprietary. They don't want any of this to become public. They can't share it. These are trade secrets. How much do they have to divulge? There's a lot of complicated legal negotiating ahead.
- disparate impact /ˈdɪspərət ˈɪmpækt/ 不均衡な影響、結果として生じる差別
- analysis /əˈnæləsɪs/ 分析、検証
- negatively affecting /ˈnɛɡətɪvli əˈfɛktɪŋ/ 否定的に影響を与える
- discovery /dɪˈskʌvəri/ 訴訟における証拠開示手続き
- wrangling over /ˈræŋɡlɪŋ ˈoʊvər/ 争う、議論する
- proprietary /prəˈpraɪəˌtɛri/ 独自の、所有権のある、企業秘密として保護される
- trade secrets /treɪd ˈsiːkrəts/ 営業秘密、企業秘密
- divulge /daɪˈvʌldʒ/ （秘密・情報を）漏らす、開示する
- complicated legal negotiating /ˈkɑːmplɪkeɪtɪd ˈliːɡəl ˈnɛɡoʊʃieɪtɪŋ/ 複雑な法的交渉
Annie Minoff: We asked Workday whether it planned to share data with Derek and his team and the company said it would be inappropriate to comment given that the matter will soon be discussed in court. Derek is hopeful.
Derek Mobley: I don't need to personally know how the algorithm works. I don't need to see the code or any of that stuff, but I think that people who are trusted experts should have the opportunity to do so and people who are independent and they can verify, "Oh, there's nothing to see here. Everything is fine. It's probably just his bad luck." Oh, then I can accept that and move on with my life.
Annie Minoff: After a lengthy search, Derek did finally get a job. In 2019, he moved into a new field, insurance. How did you eventually land your current job?
Derek Mobley: Well, I mean after going through a lot of stuff, divorce and relocating and things of that nature, I ended up in Charlotte and one day I got a call out of the blue. It was from a recruiter.
Annie Minoff: A person.
Derek Mobley: A live bona fide person. She was from Allstate and she mentioned that there was an opportunity that they were looking to fill and she set up for the initial pre-screen over the phone, did that. After the initial pre-screen, I was supposed to come into the office, interview with them in person and end up getting a position.
- bona fide
/ˌboʊ.nə ˈfaɪd/ または /ˌbɒn.ə ˈfaɪd/
正真正銘の、本物の
Annie Minoff: So this really came through kind of the old-fashioned way.
Derek Mobley: Exactly.
Annie Minoff: You talked to a person, you went into the office.
Derek Mobley: Exactly.
Annie Minoff: And boom. Since then, Derrick's been promoted twice. He likes his job, but says he's still making up for the time he spent unemployed and living off his retirement savings. His case against Workday may go through years of legal wrangling. Right now, the case has cleared the first step to becoming a class action.
Lauren Weber: At the point that it becomes a class action, if it gets that far, anybody who has applied for a job who's over the age of 40, who was essentially denied a job and they had applied through Workday's platform, potentially has a claim against Workday. As Workday pointed out in its arguments about this, that could be many millions of people.
- class action /ˌklæs ˈæk.ʃən/ 集団訴訟
- if it gets that far /ɪf ɪt ɡets ðæt fɑːr/ そこまで進めば、その段階に至れば
Annie Minoff: Lots of people.
Lauren Weber: Lots and lots of people. Any job seeker over the age of 40, and I believe it's a five-year period from 2020 to 2025, certain dates within that. And that was significant because if this continues to move forward, Workday could have millions of claims on its hands.
Annie Minoff: Workday continues to believe that the case is without merit and says that it shouldn't be certified as a class action. Regardless of the eventual outcome of the case, it seems to have already struck a nerve with some people who feel burned by how hiring works these days. After Lauren's story published, she heard from lots of readers who worried about the role that algorithms play in hiring.
- without merit /wɪˈðaʊt ˈmer.ɪt/ 根拠がない、価値がない
- be certified as a class action /biː ˈsɜː.tɪ.faɪd æz ə klæs ˈæk.ʃən/ 集団訴訟として認定される
- regardless of /rɪˈɡɑːrd.ləs əv/ ～に関係なく
- eventual outcome /ɪˈven.tʃu.əl ˈaʊt.kʌm/ 最終的な結果
- strike a nerve /straɪk ə nɜːrv/ （人の）感情を強く刺激する、逆なでする
- feel burned /fiːl bɜrnd/ （経験などで）ひどい目にあったと感じる、不利益を被ったと感じる
Lauren Weber: I think people are looking for some assurance, some assurance that the process is fair. And after that story came out, I was kind of bowled over by the number of people I heard from who said, "I'm convinced that these systems discriminate against me because of my age." There are a lot of people out there who are convinced that the job market is not fair. And I think that's why Derek became sort of a hero to many of our readers who saw that story and wrote to me to say not only are they pulling for Derek, but how can I join his lawsuit?
- be bowled over (by) /biː boʊld ˈoʊ.vɚ/ ～に非常に驚く、圧倒される
「（ボウリングのように）倒される」ですが、比喩的に「衝撃を受ける」「圧倒される」
名詞の bowl は「ボウル（器）」の意味もありますが、動詞では「ボウリングの球を転がす」 -
ball = 球（名詞）
-
bowl = 球を投げる・転がす（動詞）
Annie Minoff: That's all for today, Thursday, August 14th. The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal. If you like our show, follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We're out every weekday afternoon. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.