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bbc / hello / digital / with / here, and / different / few minutes / live / great / really pleased / very / studio / technology / podcast / four / set up / stand / live / facebook / automatically between / I think / voice-activated / add-on / lighting / at all / just / lots of conversations / temperature / stuff / normal / just radio / person / I'm loving / all / give it a go / so, uh / intro / programme / live on air / hear / get in touch / if / all / happened / still / it / face / should have been / digital / facebook / too far down / recording / what / are / live / bit longer / longer / anyway / what it / like
Greetings, everybody. Hello, I'm G__ M__, and this is Digital Planet. Today, a special edition, all about crime and technology; How tech can be used by the bad people to commit crime or used by the good people to solve it; and how the likes of facial recognition could be used to protect us from the criminals or effectively criminalize us just for going about our business. Now, how about this? : The first broadcast of this show is live on air across the BBC World Service, and video streaming via Facebook Live. So, have a quick look at your clock. It should be 32 minutes past the hour __ 20:33 GMT UK time __ __ __ actually live. Guess what. So, go on to Facebook and search for the BBC World Service page, and you'll be able to see what's going on as well as to hear it. Um ... so, if it's the middle of the evening in Europe and Africa, early- to mid-afternoon on Tuesday across the Americas, we are live. Come on and check us out / Facebook / just type in "bbc__ __ __ __" __ come and find us. __ __ __ it might be early Wednesday morning across A__-A__. Gosh, you are up early __ wake__ yourself up by coming to our page and looking at us on Facebook. So, we are streaming video, and, uh, we've got a lot going on. So, / about crime and technology, and, if you are on the live stream, then leave some comments. I can see some coming up already. I__ got a listener in Akaska. That's nice to see, ... not the only listener, but it's good to know we've got somebody from Alaska. And also __ three people here in the studio with us. Let's say, first of all, hello to G__ B__, technology expert, and you are very interested in this whole area of facial recognition and related technologies, aren't you? / Yes, I am. And, as listeners will know, it's one of my key areas on this human tech side is actually how biometrics __ __ biometrics is such an important part of our personal data and how that is leading us not just __ facial recognition but __ many other parts of our body recognition into complex __ / Right. So, / yeah / not just looking at our faces but ... / No. / behavior, instance, uh, __ __ on Facebook says, "I'm more worried about g__ / the way we walk / yeah, I know / I think g__s are major one / actually how much we can tell ... we know ... when you recognize someone __ __ distance, you know just by the way they are walking. And / Hmm. / g__ is the big one __ __ we've got to look out for in the future. / Right, OK. __ __ also here __ in the studio / is ... uh ... __ S__ __, who is a facial recognition expert, and ... well, kind of ... obvious question for you, S__, to start with. ... Is ... What is facial recognition? / So, facial recognition is a form of __ biometric technology. And "biometrics" simply just means taking any part of your body and turning it into data. So, that could be your DNA, and your finger prints, which we are most used to / law enforcement / your face / your g__s, your voice, and some people think / even your emotions / that's quite controv__l, and so on. So, you know, you can use facial recognition on animals. We've seen that in China with pigs. It doesn't just have to be people. / Right. So, __ __ __ characteristic __ / yeah / __ __ __ OK. That __ __ __ wasn't expecting to go in / glad you / brought / there / now let's also meet D__ S__ M__, who is the head of the Digital Forensics unit at __ __ University in the UK / senior l__r in forensic computing. So, you are a digital forensics person. So, OK, __ obvious first question for you: What do you mean by digital forensics? / OK, yeah. ... Uh... digital forensics is looking at any device you __ __ __ that stores data, from your laptop, your phone, your washing machine, your settop box, your A__, and seeing what you did __ __ __ seeing what criminal did or using it for an a__, you name __. / All right. And, of course it's been in __ news recently, over the weekend / reports of this case in the United States, where a smart speaker had picked up the sounds made in a bedroom during some __ violent encounter. Uh ... so, ... __ this whole technology __ part of a murder investigation, isn't it? / Absolutely. And it's gonna grow and grow __ more of these Internet of Things devices / bring / home / Right. So, this case in Florida is ... is interesting __ __ __ a__ between a couple, I think, and, during ... whatever this incident was, __ __ the woman was killed ... she was actually s__ed, I think, by the pointy end of __ bed ... bed / something / that case / they / going into the ... uh ... / Amazon Echo / Yeah. So, they're gonna look / what data was recorded because these devices are looking for you calling them, so they collect__ data __ see whether __ __ calling them or not ... so, ... / Righ. So, into digital forensics, and, the last time we had you on this programme, you were telling us about / case that involved / looking at the mother board of a washing machine. ... Some of the things you end up investigating incredible. / what / someone's a__. So, / there was __ __ a couple of miles from their home, and they tracked the suspect back to their house, and, when they asked, uh, the gentleman said, "Nuh, / I'm doing __ l__y / produced __ wet washing, and it was the only a__ in the case. So, they __ __ the washing machine, and __ __ __ look__ at / whether __ __ been used __ __ in __ __ / or whether / mobile phone remotely to turn on / Right. So, __ __ __ one of __ smart washing machines / you / trigger __ __ mobile phone / yes / enough information on the mother board / let you know how that washing machine had been triggered / Absolutely. So, we __ __ a lot of tests / running the washing machine and running it remotely, and we could see that it was triggered __ __ phone. And then, eventually __ found / phone / show that / wow / Amazing. / __ __ __ / __ __ by the way __ M__ __ __ is watching from M__ in L__, and ... uh ... and also, we have ... let's see ... M__ __ __ is listening. ... Oh, this is our listner in Alaska. So, hello to you all / what do you think, so far, / listening / a lot of / smart devices / yeah / can be part of digital forensics investigations / __ __ __ __ __ what's amazing about it is that through the devices we use / collected / Internet of Things / I think / that you are able to pin down time and space / actually / complete movements of people through time and space __ where they were just through / devices used / links to various things / then, you know, / what / that person. So, time and space become part of the actual pattern that traces of those people, all of us, actually, across ... across our situations, yeah. / and I think the evidence / human / from that is very very interesting for the future, yeah / __ __, by the way, um, __ __ especially in D__ / T__ / made a comment about facial recognition / I hope we'll get to / tell us about garage doors, though, if you will, please, S__. / Uh, __ __ __ case __ __ looking __ involves garage doors / this is a ... a civil case, um, divorce, looking __ whether the garage door __ __ __ was opened or not / whether / classic car was moved up __ __ garage / again, smartphone-related. / Yeah, so, / further into that / how ... how / whole lot of / electronics embedded in the control mechanism of the garage door? / Absolutely. So, there's a small chip / data / own little language, so, the key is to remove the chip, ... uh ... extract the data, then work out what the language is, and then reverse that __ user activity so / when / when / closed / timeframes are / time / absolutely / then hopefully map it to who was around. / OK. Um, / mention / yes / is listening, and __ __ travels a lot because she / China / put this one to you, S__, / quite a few comments about facial recognition / says, / China uses facial recognition systems at some schools as a security measure, but / scheme / classrooms after privacy concerns. / In China, / __ says / they scanned my face / I / pop (hop) / in and out / without / ticket checkers. / So, I think / the convenience of it all / a little bit unsettled by just having to verify yourself through facial recognition / Yeah, I think that's / question / is unden__ly convenient. It's easy. It's quick. But it really also ... we need to ask ourselves / worth it? / I / first of all / why / ticket / that's their job / どうして切符を切る作業を省かなきゃならないの？ やってもらったらいいじゃない。それが彼らの仕事なんだから。彼らを失業させる必要はないでしょう？ / out of / job / even that aspect / cyber security points, how / stored / private compan__ / processing it / are they sharing it with third parties? ... Um ... could it be tampered / hacked / so, everybody / everybody / deep fake videos / i__ nature / So, ... so, that, I suppose, is the key thing / balance right / many really useful cases where facial recognition is fantastic, but, just getting the balance between / I think it's again / gonna hammer / everything looks like a nail / I mean / maybe / really useful / question is / whatever problem / solution for / I / really / challenge / you / solve it without requiring somebody to hand over / most precious personal data / you cannot reset / the way / user name or password / facial recognition / huge story around the world / this / in a school case / minicipality / was fined for __ facial recognition / That's right / is / big question about using / school / children, by definition / cannot give con__ / the way that adults can / parents and teachers are using / technology / taking a__ / United States / used / against gun crime, supposedly. The problem is, those kids are not / really opt out / want / facial recognition / you have go to that school. / this / important case / European GDPR / wasn't it / yes / Well, it's not __ outright ban / last / French national data regulat__, the CNIL / they said / the use of facial recognition / is illegal. / so, __ __ very nuanced, still. / Yeah. OK. / is in C__, Australia, saying / keep watching / be / to work / Digital Planet / Facebook Live stream / I should say / Digital / BBC World / hosting a special edition all about / crime / facial recognition expert, S__ M__, digital forensics expert, and, of course / let's come back to you 'cause I / fascinated / virtual reality is becoming part of / digital / study / quite a lot / you can pick up / way / how / games / Absolutely. So, we've started looking at essentially biometrics __ __ stored after / VR used for practicing terrorism activities, or bank ro__s, or / acts / we / a lot about how / what / you know / how / OK / by the way, says, "I've considered turning off facial recognition / iPhone / I'm not sure how much / how much / now that I've been using it / implication / back to you, S__ / very well / turning off / facial / by / pretty good image of your face anyway / iPhone / that data is not / device / that / stored on your phone / doesn't / cloud / we can reassure our listener on that point / OK / The bigger problem is / around London, for example / the whole city / people / quite / once you / identifying / who the / real / can link it to all other / about them, which are extensive / then you can track people everywhere / be soon? / They are capable of that and / only get better / I / N__ in France / N__, obviously, had that horrific terror attack in 2016 / so you can imagine / very / in terms of the trauma / explore / security measure. That said, France is proceeding kind of like the UK / test out / A / B: What / for / schools, no. / OK. / I just think / John C__ __ / who's saying, "There's no personal / any more / just / for me, you know, this shouldn't be __ __ happening. We / long / from / personal data ... um ... being used ... misused / email addresses / telephone numbers / and the fact that we haven't / in some way / linked / same thing / personal / surely the most important activism / is not about / or about, you know, / GDPR / it's actually about / ownership / full stop / how we start to / activate __ replacement of / ownership / finger prints, all the things we know / and / expressions, etc., back to ourselves / in place / I know / he's just got / new company called __, which is going to really start to work / ownership / now / always on about because I / believe / what that does to identity? What it does / agency? What does it do / me / why / do that to me / go / my data / do / honestly / this is where / to go a bit crazy / I think / personal data ownership, full stop. / and that includes, you know, / all types of biometrics / the other side of this / quite a lot of / to identify / you know / for good reasons / identify / bad people / maybe from / from the voice prints / things they utter into their / the other side / Absolutely. And I think / real trade off between people's privacy and / be able to / about / Uh, by the way, uh, __ __ says, "Good / apparently it's / 9:40 / breakfast programme / breakfast / but, um, / what about / we__ heard ... we / talking about / it seems that / an important part of / coming from one of these smart speakers / anybody / listening to us all the time / I know / it's controversial / sure / wondering / muttering to themselves as they go about their daily b__ in their homes / picking all that up / key / digital forensics is / it depends / each device / each software / each update will handle it differently / in order for / they have to be listening / to check / yes, they are listening / Right, yeah / it is / D__ M__ says / have / and Google / now / bedroom / living / how / technology / what about __ __ constantly listening to us and / b__ our privacy? / people / we don't know / answers / letting these devices / capable of / I mean that / choice / I'm not sure / capable of / issue / headline / somewhere else / real / an urban myth / why / very important to have / come back / very interested in this issue / password-protected / to what extent can a / crime / and maybe / I don't know, / hack / should they be able to do / most devices are at least password-protected / finger / absolutely / sometimes you can guess / very easy password / really / do / sticky notes / Wow. / something / yeah / people / same password / across __ multiple devices / so / easiest device / get into / identify the password / some of / higher-end devices / be very difficult / are there ways / I / to another device, for instance / absolutely / some devices / easier / blue / Wi-Fi / that permission to / good example is / car to get / mobile / mobile / harder to get into than / car was / I see / into / maybe / was / just / enable __ __ connection / able to pretend / car in essense / by the way, / hello from / nice to see you all / you, too, G__ / Andy / from / come back to you / I have no fear / facial / people who / power to use it amazes me / ten years ago / people / national / intrusive / now / championing the use of facial recognition / I'm not sure / it does show / the UK / you / let's expand G__ B__'s point out / idea / about ID cards / in / thing / don't need / national / body becomes the ID card. So, that's what / United / other / in India / systems / scan / finger / your face / in order to access social / France is now moving / facial / national digital identigy scheme / obviously think it is / because they are chancers. Everybody is chancing / until / illegal / it's allowed / years / that is why / really / law makers, you know, / get them going / mean / billion people on / to change that / get / ownership / back to / gone far already / already / facial recognition / and, in many cases / many countries / never had / some / better systems / certain countries / as long as, I believe / owned by / so / right to opt out / what's interesting / India / supreme / human body / system is illegal / but / finely judged / supreme court / interesting / look at / think about / own our data / actually / human / both / but the whole point / can sell my / need / really interesting question about / lot / fitness trackers / you own the data / into / if the tracker / associated software / in order to / footsteps per minute / fitness tracker / processing / lot of different rules / if you / back / pages / pages / what / can't resist / asking / have / your / investigations / fitness / yeah, absolutely / research project on them / year / smart / three / wearing them / off / be honest / a variety of / identify the last movement of / to identify / like / whether / really useful / I think / some people / strong / for / example / others / seriously / public / five times / massive corruptions / people / making a sceptical face / be stolen / finger / be stolen / face / voice / so, yes, in theory / criminal investigator / if / need to / do it / investigator / forensics / to / replica / you need / yeah / totally depend on / device / is why / National Cyber Deception L__ / ministry of / administering / that kind of / in a / war / tomorrow / very / by the way, says / loving the show / see / listening from / discussion / thanks for that as well / before / another / says, "I / facial / more way / target me / whole other aspect / adding that / time to / I'm afraid / already / thank / listening / indeed / bbc / producer