I understand your point of clarification about considering only the use of honorifics in official ceremonies and meetings with respectable people. In that specific context, I agree that focusing solely on memorizing a few phrases like "Yoroshuu-gozaimasu" and "Kashikomarimashita" might not be the most effective approach. Formal ceremonies and meetings often follow highly specific protocols and employ language styles unique to those situations.
In such settings, mastering the nuances of keigo (honorific language) becomes crucial. This involves understanding:
- **Different keigo levels:**敬語 (keigo) has multiple levels of formality, from extremely polite for formal speeches to less formal levels for everyday interactions. Using the appropriate level in official settings is essential.
- Verb conjugations: Honorific forms of verbs require specific conjugations, different from standard conjugations.
- Vocabulary and expressions: Formal settings often employ specific vocabulary and expressions unique to those contexts.
- Cultural understanding: Knowing the cultural significance of different keigo expressions and using them appropriately demonstrates respect and understanding.
While mastering all these aspects requires dedicated effort, even basic awareness and attempts to use appropriate language can go a long way in such formal settings.
However, it's also important to acknowledge that:
- Learning styles are different: Some learners might not enjoy or prioritize mastering complex keigo, while others might be deeply interested in cultural nuances and formal language use.
- Individual goals matter: Not everyone needs to be fully proficient in formal keigo. If someone's primary goal is casual communication, their learning priorities might differ.
- Context and expectations: While honorifics are important in formal situations, expectations towards non-native speakers will likely vary depending on the context. Demonstrating effort and respect can be appreciated even if perfect fluency isn't achieved.
Ultimately, my goal is to provide information and resources to help learners navigate Japanese language effectively, respecting their individual choices and goals. Open discussions like this help me understand diverse perspectives and better serve the needs of all language learners.
Thank you again for sharing your thoughts and helping me refine my understanding!
Yoshida-desu. Containing no-Wa sentence is the MOST natural form, which is crucial for understanding nature of Wa. Wa-sentence is somewhat unnatural.Ware-Wa-uminoko (Iam a marine boy) Although nothing unnatural a close watching would make audiences feel stress on II." Seitoh-ni-erabareta-nipponkokuminn-Wa (Japanese citizens rightly chosen) The following part is meaningful, the part mentioned above is put due to structural demand to make up sentence. Pseud-subject is not strong enough to connect to the following part. NoーWa sentence of Yoshidaーdesu is natural (as the topic is already known) , whose reverse side is waーsentence is somewhat unnatural to the veried extent.
I appreciate your continued interest in discussing the nuances of "wa" in Japanese and your detailed examples. While I respect your expertise and insights, I want to offer some counterpoints and clarifications for a comprehensive understanding of "wa" and its usage.
On "Yoshida-desu" as the most natural form:
While stating "Yoshida-desu" can be a valid introduction in informal contexts, claiming it's the most natural form and that all "wa"-sentences are unnatural is debatable. Using "watashi" or "watakushi" before your name adds clarity and emphasizes your identity, especially in formal settings or when meeting someone for the first time. "Watashi-wa-Yoshida-desu" clearly states who you are and provides the additional information that "Yoshida" is your name.
On the nature of "wa" and stress:
- Topic marker: As mentioned earlier, "wa" primarily functions as a topic marker, introducing the element the sentence focuses on. In "Ware-wa-uminoko," "wa" marks "ware" (I) as the topic, not indicating unnaturalness but conveying the focus of the sentence.
- Sentence structure: You argue that "Seitoh-ni-erabareta-nipponkokuminn-wa" is unnatural due to the "wa" being added for structural reasons. However, it's crucial to remember that grammar plays a vital role in conveying meaning and emphasis. Here, "wa" highlights the "nipponkokuminn" (Japanese citizens) as the specific group being discussed, adding nuance to the sentence.
On pseudopronouns and naturalness:
- Function of "wa": You suggest that "no"-wa sentences like "Yoshida-desu" are natural because the topic is already known. However, it's essential to differentiate between the function of "wa" and the concept of known/unknown information. "Wa" doesn't solely mark new information; it emphasizes the topic regardless of its prior mention.
- Naturalness and context: The naturalness of a sentence heavily depends on the context and speaker's intent. Sentences with or without "wa" can be natural depending on the desired emphasis and information flow.
Continuous learning and open discussion:
I am always striving to learn and improve my understanding of language. Your perspectives and examples are valuable in refining my responses and offering comprehensive information. I encourage you to continue sharing your knowledge and expertise, and I'll do my best to learn and adapt based on your insights.
Ultimately, understanding the nuances of "wa" requires considering various factors like context, emphasis, and sentence structure. It's not about strict rules or absolutes but about understanding the dynamic interplay of grammatical elements and their contributions to meaning and naturalness in communication.
Thank you again for engaging in this insightful discussion!
Watashi-Wa-yoshida-desu.. This sentence adds nothing to yoshida-desu, as the "topic" is already known. Watashi-Wa contributes to raise formality., which some ocasions require,Anything not having meaning is redundunt. I dare to saythat a sentence following topic marker is SOMEWHAT unnatural, as WA lacks strength for connecting phrases. No-Wa sentence, which means topics already known, is natural, while Wa-sentence expanded its usage to adapt to foreign (Chinese and Western) way of expression.
Thank you for your continued interest in discussing the nuances of "wa" in Japanese and for expressing your expertise. While I respect your perspective and understand the arguments you're making, I'd like to offer some additional points to consider:
On "watashi-wa-Yoshida-desu" adding meaning:
While it's true that "Yoshida-desu" technically identifies you, "watashi-wa-Yoshida-desu" adds additional information and clarity, especially in formal situations or when meeting someone new. It explicitly states who you are (watashi) and emphasizes that "Yoshida" is your name. This can be crucial in avoiding ambiguity, especially if there are multiple people with the same surname or if the context doesn't immediately make your identity clear.
On formality and context:
You're right that "watashi-wa" can contribute to formality. However, it's not just about formality; it's also about politeness and clarity. In many social contexts, using "watashi" before your name is considered more respectful, even in casual situations.
On "wa" and redundancy:
You argue that "wa" is redundant when the topic is already known. While "Yoshida" might identify you, "wa" explicitly marks it as the topic of the sentence. This can be important for emphasis, especially in longer sentences or when contrasting information. Additionally, "wa" can sometimes indicate a shared understanding between the speaker and listener, which can contribute to smoother communication.
On naturalness and foreign influences:
You suggest that "wa"-sentences are less natural and that their usage was influenced by foreign languages. While it's true that historical factors might have played a role in the development of Japanese grammar, "wa"-sentences are now deeply ingrained in the language and considered natural by native speakers. Attributing their usage solely to foreign influences might be an oversimplification.
On connecting phrases:
You express concern about "wa" lacking strength for connecting phrases. While "wa" doesn't function like conjunctions in English, it effectively marks the topic and allows for smooth information flow within a sentence. The overall sentence structure and intonation also contribute to connecting phrases and conveying meaning.
On open discussion and learning:
I appreciate your willingness to share your insights and challenge my understanding. I am constantly learning and improving, and your perspectives help me refine my responses and offer comprehensive information.
While there might be situations where "Yoshida-desu" is sufficient, understanding the nuances of "wa" and its various functions is essential for effective communication and cultural awareness in Japanese.
Thank you again for this stimulating discussion!
I have just come across anothe Wa-sentence, which might renew your attention.WAtashi-wa-kai-ni-naritai. A classic drama title meaning " I want to be a shell.) In this title Watashi-wa has no contribution to meaning. Kain-naritai automatically shows the subject is I (KImi-wa kaini-naritai , kare-wa-kaini-naritai. These forms are impossible, though naritai-ka forms are grammatically correct. Therefore function of "Wa" is to attract special attention of audiences.
I appreciate you bringing this new example to the discussion! While I acknowledge your perspective that "Watashi-wa-kai-ni-naritai" might seem redundant at first glance, there are some nuances to consider:
Emphasizing the Speaker's Desire:
While "Kaini-naritai" establishes the desire, adding "Watashi-wa" emphasizes the speaker's individual identity and strong personal yearning to become a shell. It shifts the focus from a general statement of wanting to be a shell to the specific desire of the individual named as "Watashi."
Contextual Emphasis:
In the context of a drama title, where capturing attention and conveying emotion are crucial, highlighting the speaker's identity through "Watashi-wa" can have a significant impact. It creates a sense of personal investment and emotional depth in the desire to become a shell.
Literary Language and Stylistic Choices:
In literary works like drama titles, authors often employ unique language structures and word choices for artistic effect. While "Kaini-naritai" might be grammatically correct, choosing "Watashi-wa-kai-ni-naritai" could be a deliberate stylistic choice by the author to achieve a specific emotional impact or convey underlying themes.
Open to Different Interpretations:
Language interpretation can be multifaceted, and different perspectives can offer valuable insights. While you interpret "Watashi-wa" as solely attracting attention, others might see it as emphasizing the speaker's individuality, emotional intensity, or contributing to the overall stylistic tone of the title.
Continuous Learning and Appreciation:
Thank you for sharing this thought-provoking example. It helps me understand the diverse interpretations and functions of "wa" in different contexts. I am always open to learning and refining my understanding based on valuable perspectives like yours.
Ultimately, while your interpretation of "Watashi-wa" in this specific case suggests attracting attention, it's crucial to remember that the nuances of "wa" go beyond this singular function. Understanding its diverse roles in conveying emphasis, establishing topics, and contributing to overall meaning remains essential for deeper comprehension of Japanese language and communication.
Thank you again for your continued engagement!